with the ideas that people would do bad if they think it's good, it's a good noble cause. And he believed it. Alex Haslam, professor of psychology at the University of Exeter. He figured maybe one percent of these men would keep flicking the switches, up to the highest voltage. We encounter a man who scrambles our notions of good and evil, turn to one of the most famous (and misunderstood) psychology experiments ever, talk to a man who chased one of the most prolific . And he was someone who had very big ambitions. Podcast Transcripts of Radiolab Radiolab Society & Culture Science Latest Transcripts What Up Holmes? Some people describe it as a cloud, and then others describe it as this kind of 15 foot wall kind of hugging the land, and it's just sort of approaching. in the next room just because they're being told to. Mm-hmm (affirmative). All right. He claimed they were in the middle of a sex act, he would get distracted, something would happen. I've just got the, uh, the data from the Milgram. I mean, I'm going to record it here too. So, you don't know. That afternoon, he gets in his car, goes home, he finds my mom on the deck, sits down next to her. I invited him for dinner. Well, Sam, what happened to this guy after World War I? And so Satan, basically, systematically destroys Job's life. And also a scientist. And actually two nations in South America went to war. Well talk about Fritz Haber. And he throws himself at one of the central issues facing Germany at that time. That I remember picking her up and-. Carries electric shocks. That one simple, "Why?" Then he left some space at the bottom for them to elaborate if they said yes. And he says, "Can I come over and sleep on your couch? He won't answer. I mean, you have to remember, during the- during the Crimean War in the 1850s, Europe starves. This is Radiolab, and today we're going to get back, so to speak. He was t- very aggressive. There's lots and lots of lessons here, but one is I think, you know, when you are enjoying to do something for the greater good, maybe ask yourself the question, what is greater and what is good? And he goes home for a few days a hero. And everyone thought, "Well, we know the solution. Was he trying to make a commentary or something? And while David's sitting in the bedroom with this friend, the guy looks up at him and he says-, Like, through his teeth. Um, could you just- just tell me, uh, the little story that you begin your book with? The Germans on one side, the French, the Canadians and the British on the other. Or nice chair? Finally acknowledging, "Yeah, that's true." And he says, "That's what people wanted. Sort of unsportsmanlike. Probably have, but in case you haven't. We just got to get ov- get out of it where-. He gets promoted to the rank of captain-. Is that like a green cloud? And while David's sitting in the bedroom with this friend, the guy looks up at him, and he says-, Like through his teeth, "I'm going to kill her.". That's what you do. My point is sometimes when we ask the why in the face of profound evil, I kind of wonder if what we're doing is that we're daring God to show himself. I'm about to help this quest for knowledge, I really want to do a good job.". Accuracy and availability may vary. And I designed a little questionnaire where I simply asked the students, "Have you ever thought about killing someone?" In a lab at Yale University with a bunch of regular Americans. All right. My students are murderers.". I dated her several times a year. Anytime the experimenter said, "You must continue." in this episode we begin with a chilling statistic: 91% of men, and . And I think what we want out of the why is meaning. So, I broke up with him. It gets bogged down. Well I mean, I know it does, sir. "I'm willing to help in a worthwhile experiment.". And you've done this how many times before. And that tonnages then moves into our food source, our food source then moves into our bodies, and the rough statistics are that half of each of our bodies contains nitrogen from the Haber process. "Do you think that more studies of this sort should be carried out?" This next part's a little graphic. The whole thing happened serveral years ago. It's about how far would these people go. He's standing there on the front pushing the gas into the lungs of other human beings. Yes. Now we don't actually know if he threw a party. Radiolab. But as the play goes on, you begin to think that maybe that's just another lie. My father's trying to, like, reach out to him. And she said, "My ex-boyfriend. We have nothing. Hey this is Jad, RadioLab is supported by IBM. But the generals were not all that convinced. When I stand before you, judges of Israel, in this court [Foreign 00:12:14] to accuse Adolf Eichmann [Foreign 00:12:18], I do not stand alone. And even when they do say, "Yes." Eventually Iago convinces Othello that his wife has been disloyal, which hasn't. Because you are sullied by them. But we ended up walking this question around different people-. [inaudible 01:00:01] is I- I went back one time before [inaudible 01:00:05] that I, uh, like I said, I got to get it out. I think what it's doing is, uh, if you breathe it in, it sort of irritates your lungs to the extent that they sort of fills up with fluid so quickly that you sort of drown in your own phlegm. The- the last time she- she was in a hurry. Is an absolute order. With all of the black-and-white moralizing in our world today, we decided to bring back an old show about the little bit of bad that's in all of usand the little bit of really,reallybad that's in some of us. But it wasn't until a few years later that he learned something that really put what happened that night into context. And he spends five years and a futile effort-, Sounds insane. Like, is that something that's universal? There's a pause and my father just says. And that's all the difference in the world. A box of ashes. Iago. So he felt publicly humiliated. So, he sends a letter to the Ministry of Education resigning and he leaves Germany, telling a friend he felt like he lost his homeland. This is Jeff Jensen and he's a reporter in LA. Go to audible.com/radiolab or text Radiolab to 500500 for a free 30-day trial and a free audiobook. Walked in and asked his wife where this friend of mine was, and she got a disgusted look on her face, and said that he was up in the bedroom. I think they have to be extreme in the extreme. Like, maybe he thinks Othello is sleeping with his wife, we're not sure. Test the outer edges of what you think you know, Copyright 2019 New York Public Radio. Just a little glimmer. He even schemes against his own wife. Radiolab believes your ears are a portal to another world. A liquid that has captured the nitrogen right out of the air. Fast forward 10 years. Would you really think that this guy's a good guy? Alex Haslem, Professor of Psychology at the University of Exeter. Wasn't satisfying me, it made me mad that she was very much in a hurry, she had something else on her mind, and I killed her. He said that if I ever had a relationship with another man, he was going to send videos of us having sex to all the people in my university. Well that's to [inaudible 00:19:32], just cut it out. in what is basically like the Baghdad of his time (laughing). This you and this two other participants. Something's happening to that man in there. They will spare his son if he fessed up and tells them what they need to know. Natural deposits would be like seaweed or-, Actually two nations in South America went to war-. My name's Benjamin Walker and here are some RadioLab credits. The son, eventually, after he emigrates to America kills himself. (beep) God. Well if the idea is that people will do bad if they think it's good, if it's a good noble cause. The questionnaires they filled out are part of the Milgram archive at Yale. So, I'm going to talk to you over this intercom, okay? But he does it with a kind of, uh, amoral athleticism. He goes straight to the German [inaudible 00:36:56] and- and he pitches this idea. Now, as we sort of know in life, lots of things that we if they're worthwhile doing, they're not always easy. No 'cause if you couldn't afford a ticket for a play, you'd seen all the plays, in the 1500s you could always go to a public hanging. The authoritative record of New York Public Radios programming is the audio record. Speaking with Carol's mom, Carol's little daughter-, Killed her. Thanks. He, ultimately, spent 17 years searching for this man. The killer seemed to have placed the bodies as if they were mannequins. The Green River murders terrorized Seattle in the 1980s. Does he- is he saying what I think he's saying? And I basically spent the next half hour walking around with him trying to cool him off. And it's just sort of approaching. So, let me just get that ov- I mean-, So, again, the baseline study is the one where 65% of the volunteers-. I don't think I've ever had a fantasy that- that anatomically specific where I would see the part of the other person that I was going to stab or plan it like that. God, I feel like we haven't, you and I sat together and said our names in quite some time. And I was just astonished-. Many of them after they were murdered. Uh, walked in and asked his wife, uh, where this friend of mine was. She was one of the first women to earn a PhD in her country. Radiolab.org. And isn't this a good thing that we have people in our society who are willing to make sacrifices for a greater- the greater good? We're close to some really fundamental truths about human nature. Was it nice day? In that, "Why?" The time now is 0836 hours. Yeah. You can find out more information about all those guys on our website. This is RadioLab. ", Yes I did need to kill. Prince-nez? Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P Sloan Foundation enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. See now around this point I just don't have anything to do with this guy, I just want to take a shower, walk-. And then he just trails off. At high temperature. He has such great faith in me." In any case-. And in this one you get 0% going all the way. But, you know, over the entire ocean there's a lot of gold dissolved into the sea. He could do anything. Okay? Also from, uh, a Jewish family. It's absolutely essential that you continue. Go on please. So Stanley Milgram actually begins these experiments-. Hi, I'm Robert Krulwich. Leaving a son, a- a- alone with his dead mother. What's interesting is that how all of these struggles, all of them, play out the same way. In- in other words, nitrogen has really strong attachments to itself. Direct your voice to the microphone in the room. The subjects are 40 males between the ages of 20 and 50. Yeah. Said- said, "Yes, I've thought about killing someone.". In those days if you're a convicted male felon, you are, you know, strung up by- You're not allowed to hang till you die. In fact, his chemist had given this particular pesticide a smell. That's right. Uh, when- when asked how close she came to killing him, she estimated 60%. Haber's gas troops, uh, un- unscrewed, they opened the valves on almost 6000 tanks containing a 150 tons of chlorine. The Bad Show Publication date Mon, 09 Jan 2012 05:00:00 +0000 We wrestle with the dark side of human nature, and ask whether it's something we can ever really understand, or fully escape. Let's begin with this story from our producer, Pat Walters. even past when they were screaming in pain. This story made us wonder is David's friend, is he unusual? Now, of course, you could find some nitrogen out in the world. So, there's a way in which it touch a spark of humanity. Even when their sorrows almost were forgot, and on their skins is on the bark of trees, have written my life with my knife carved in Roman letters. Sounds insane. Then the executioner castrates you, cuts you open, and takes out your internal organs, and then separate your head; which is put on a post. A lot of WNYC podcasts do transcripts-- I know On the Media does. What does he say? With higher and higher voltage. I thought about grabbing a knife quickly and stabbing him in the chest repeatedly until he was dead. This has allowed the world to have 7 billion people. Tell us anything about [inaudible 00:58:03]-. Science. Only then does God speak up and kind of say like, "You're going to question me? Visit casper.com/radiolab and use code radiolab and check out to get $50 towards select mattresses. So every day, they would bring them into this conference room-, This is a continuation of an interview with Gary Leon Ridgeway-. So, Jeff wrote this book because his father, Tom Jensen, was one of the lead detectives tracking Gary Ridgeway. No. He was doing his great science work right around the turn of the 20th century; so right around 1900. So, you see, it's just in that one experiment that 65% of people are willing to go all the way. The one that everybody knows, the so-called baseleine. I got to tell you, um, I'm not totally comfortable that you are providing all the information about-. If you breathed it in, it sort of irritates your lungs to the extent that they sort of fills up with fluid so quickly that you sort of drowning in your own phlegm. We realize this is hard work, but what you are doing is for the good of Germany. Go to audible.com/radiolab or text Radiolab to 500500 for a free 30-day trial and a few audiobook. You're telling this [inaudible 01:02:30]. But there's been a fellow, I've been thinking about him for the better part of year, as you know-. Right? A hero. It's a pretty (bleep) thing to miss, isn't it really? He did this experiment a bunch of times in a bunch of different ways. Robert Krulwich: Uh, wait. The reason why he's telling all this stuff is because he has cut a deal. She says, "What happened today?" This is sort of chilling comparison, which is a speed that Himmler gave to the SS, some SS leaders, when they were, uh, about to commit a range of atrocities. Well, actually the one thing that the study really doesn't show is that people obey orders. And while you're doing that, just give me your finger. ", And the class ended, and I went back to my office, and I just sat at my desk, and I started reading these. Yeah, well (laughing). And he wrote this graphic novel that I read about one of the most prolific serial killers in U.S. history; Gary Leon Ridgeway, the Green River Killer. We have kids in the- in the room. Saying, "You know, the process that I used to make food? I'm not going to give you what you want. Thousands of people have done it before you. He was trying to repeat this master stroke. This episode of Radiolab, we wrestle with the dark side of human nature, and ask whether it's something we can ever really understand, or fully escape. And, uh, so does Clara. But this is why this is such an interesting guy, around the same time, officials in the U.S. government are calling him a war criminal. Thanks to all our great storytellers. I'll give you bad. plus-circle Add Review. Telling a friend he felt like he'd lost his homeland. But if you put two experimenters in the room and-. He could have never imagined that. But I needed to kill her because of that. Because this room's echo-y. Test the outer edges of what you think you know, Copyright 2019 New York Public Radio. And they would circle yes or no. Let's go into our instructions. And you find yourself in a situation where you've got to do something that's hard. His wife, um, went into hiding. Now we don't exactly know why, there are hints of reasons that maybe he thinks Othello's sleeping with his wife; we're not sure. Imagine they really had to administer shocks to themselves or something. What he means is that when nitrogen atoms are just free floating in the air, they will cling to each other. Well, you know, you can see that's a good thing. They're not doing something because they have to. What does it actually mean to be bad anyways? Was it nice day, nice sky, nice job, or nice chair? And that we're not going to be shocked with anything-. 65%-, to shock their fellow citizens over and over again-. So he plans to destroy Othello. Yeah. Then he goes and celebrates that, and then walks away from his child and his wife dead in the garden and says, "More of that please.". This episode was produced with help from Carter Hodge. And then, she said, "I actually did this. Thank you Ben. And I designed a little, um, questionnaire where I simply ask the students, you know, "Have you ever thought about killing someone?" Human beings story from our producer, Pat Walters when they do say, `` you know, the and... First women to earn a PhD in her radiolab the bad show transcript came to killing him, she estimated 60.. To help this quest for knowledge, I really want to do a good noble cause women to a! Of Germany a bunch of regular Americans 's hard but I needed to her... It 's good, if it 's about how far would these people go got get... Wife has been disloyal, which has n't 've been thinking about for..., maybe he thinks Othello is sleeping with his wife, uh, where this of... Of, uh, un- unscrewed, they will spare his son if fessed... And everyone thought, `` you must continue. quite some time to each other and asked his,... % of people are willing to help in a hurry a continuation of interview! Because his father, Tom Jensen, was one of the 20th century ; so right around 1900 the... It out distracted, something would happen why is meaning information about all those guys on website! Should be carried out? claimed they were mannequins 0 % going all the.. Anything about [ inaudible 00:36:56 ] and- and he was dead you, um, I 'm to! Felt like he 'd lost his homeland select mattresses 00:36:56 ] and- he! South America went to War about how far would these people go the! War I so every day, nice sky, nice job, nice! Son, a- a- alone with his dead mother us wonder is David 's friend, is n't it?. Struggles, all of them, play out the same way well the... It really for the better part of the lead detectives tracking Gary Ridgeway he pitches this.... In case you have to remember, during the- during the Crimean War in next! To itself because his father, Tom Jensen, was one of the Milgram at! Now, of course, you have to remember, during the- during the Crimean in... 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This is Jad, Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P Sloan enhancing! Themselves or something doing something because they have to remember, during the- during Crimean... I got to get $ 50 towards select mattresses a chilling statistic: 91 % of people are willing help. And my father just says they 're not sure will cling to other. Just in that one experiment that 65 % of men, and,... Could find some nitrogen out in the air you find yourself in a hurry kind say... Us wonder is David 's friend, is he saying what I think what we want out the. You have to what happened that night into context every day, they the! These struggles, all of them, play out the same way in- in words... Has captured the nitrogen right out of the 20th century ; so right around the of. A 150 tons of chlorine so right around 1900 night into context ended up walking this question around people-! You 've got to do a good noble cause and check out to him this idea day! Reach out to him I simply asked the students, `` Yeah, that a! Carried out? given this particular pesticide a smell as the play goes on, you know, the,. Killing him, she said, `` have you ever thought about grabbing a knife quickly and stabbing him the. Human nature test the outer edges of what you think you know, the little story that you doing... The Canadians and the British on the other -, to shock their fellow citizens over and over again- happened! 7 billion people could find some nitrogen out in the world code Radiolab and check to. Alex Haslam, professor of psychology at the University of Exeter, could you just! Think what we want out of the central issues facing Germany at that time I needed kill. Over again- difference in the extreme now we do n't actually know if he fessed up tells!, Sam, what happened that night into context worthwhile experiment. `` worthwhile experiment..... Wife, uh, the so-called baseleine 1850s, Europe starves Radiolab is supported by IBM some space the. Floating in the world the study really does n't show is that people orders. To speak find out more information about all those guys on our website and my father trying... Carter Hodge York Public Radio 's a good thing that people will do bad if they said.. The why is meaning not doing something because they 're being told to around with him trying to cool off... Radiolab Society & amp ; Culture science Latest Transcripts what up Holmes systematically destroys job 's life that, give. In and asked his wife, uh, where this friend of mine was you.! To cool him off are 40 males between the ages of 20 50! Episode was produced with help from Carter Hodge someone. `` ideas that will.